I have really been thinking about this subject long and hard lately. It's hard not to when we are getting bombarded every day now it seems, with news of pet food recalls and deaths related to contaminated pet foods.

Last night I was reading the ingrediants list on a bag of Rowdybush. I was specifically looking for "wheat glutten", an ingredient linked to the current pet food recall. Thankfully I didn't see it on the list.

What I did see on the list are dozens of unpronouncable chemicals and assorted ingredients that I have absolutely no knowledge of.

How safe can this be? Are they any more dillegent about what goes into their product than the manufacturers of the affected pet food? Do we know where they get their ingredients from? Are they also importing ingredients from countries with less stringent regulations regarding the use of chemicals in food grade products?

A lot of these pelleted foods are endorsed by veteranarians. Veteranarians who may recieve rewards(kickbacks)for these very same endorsements.

We are basically taking the word of corporations with a vested interest in us continuing to use their products, that their pellets are not only safe but healthy. There are millions of dollars in profits on the line.

Now we see a reactionary wave of pet owners switching to "natural" diets in an effort to get away from formulated dog and cat foods.

I'm seriously thinking of going back to a "natural" diet for our birds. That being seeds, nuts and lots of fresh foods. I know there are some seeds and nuts that contain levels of fat that are not healthy, but I think that maybe by limiting the worst offenders, it might overall be a better and safer diet.

Of course there is no guarantee that the next bag of seed mix won't be contaminated with something dangerous, but I think I might feel better knowing that at least their diet was grown the old fashioned way and not whipped up in some scientists laboratory.

I'm not throwing out the pellets just yet, but I am considering it.

Alot of pellets also list soy ingredients.Soy is also known to cause iron problems.
I have the book "the large macaws" co-authored by Dr. Brain Speers and he also says that pellets are not the best as far as diet.I will find the chapter were they talk about pellets..and put in a quote if you want..or I can just PM it to you.
My birds eat only a small portion of pellets...it perhaps only makes up about 15% of their diet.All have a good health report from the vets

I just heard on the radio that they "can't be sure" that the contaminated gluten didn't get into human food. I guess it could be anywhere there's gluten.

Ahhh What a fine mess you've gotten us into Abbott...

Like I said before...why are we importing Wheat from other countries when we have our own stock piled right here in the US??? Doesn't make sense to me!

It's all confusing and scary when you think about it! By switching our animals to the natural diet, we could be helping them, but then what about all the food that we eat with wheat gluten in it? As QPdad said, it could be in our food too... Scary! (What radio station where you listening too?)


There seems to be a lot of birds that do fine on seeds and their owners don't even worry about fatty liver disease etc. maybe some are just more prone to the fatty liver disease etc.?

...now I have to go read the ingredients in Casey's pellets... Thanks!

I'd love to read it.

I'd also like to read any information pro or con on the subject of pellets vs. seeds as a regular diet. How can I trust any vet to give my the straight goods. I can't even trust a Doctor to prescribe the best medication. They all get lobbied by drug makers to prescribe their drug as a first choice. Can't get a straight answer from anyone anymore.




Good luck finding a translator.

Oh my----I'm like Connie now...You sure have me thinking strong about this....

I was reading of two members that I think both of their birdies are eating mostly seed and I think Captjo had Marley on seed if I'm not mistaken.....and they were/are getting up in age according to a thread on here started by someone...

Oh well, I'll be following this quite closely and see what and if anyone finds out anything new.....

I was listening to an ABC "news" feed on a local Binghamton NY station. It was someone with the FDA. Seems they're going to ban further imports of gluten from China.

I have celiac so I can't eat gluten but who knows where the next round of food contamination will come from.

NEW RULE: Don't eat food and don't feed your pets.

I will type it out when I get the chance.It aslo has a listing of comparing brands..percentages of vitamins and minerals..whether they are artificial or not as well a listing of chemicals found in them.

not sure if I can post something like that on the forum? .I also don't want to confuse some new bird owners.So maybe I better pm it to you? May not be until tomorrow morning
Darn motherly responsabilities and all

NEW RULE: Don't eat food and don't feed your pets.

I'm with QP Dad on this one. What, if anything, is truly safe? What, if anything, is truly organic -- meaning it has never been modified in any way shape or form? I believe we would be hard pressed to find such items.

I am certainly not condoning the use of chemicals in place of plants ... however, I see no way to feasibly live my life without partaking in these substances. I am not going to grow my own food, and even if I were to find the time and choose to do so the seeds have been genetically modified to fit our current climate and product the prettiest and the most fruit and veg possible.

I don't have the answer, by any means ... but I do find this an extremely interesting thread. Thanks UZ.

I'll look forward to reading it. Thank you

I think it's important for us all to be dilligent and try and educate ourselves about bird health and nutrition. To that end I have just fired off a nicely worded request for more ingredient information from "my pellet manufacturer"*, asking them to allay my fears and assure me about their quality controls. I'll see what the head office has to say. Who knows what information they'll release and whether it can even be believed.



*I don't want to mention the name further. As I have no problem with this particular brand, or any formulated pellet for that matter, I just want to know more. I'll just leave it at pellet manufacturer.

oh boy... i feed my qp those pellets but what's even worse is that it comes in bulk so i don't even know what the ingredients are since they weigh it and put it in a bag.

i just took their word that if that's what they feed all their birds it must be good... i never even thought about a kickback situation.

gypsygal, i would love a copy of the article too if you don't mind!

my parakeets have been on an all seed diet because a lot of people i know have always fed theirs seed. they seem healthy but then again they're only 2 years old.

does anyone have a list of the "good" nuts and seeds? i'm a new parront and have no clue since i was told to give mostly pellets and veggies....

I want to add that I DO feed my quaker more pellets then my macaws.When I began re-searching pellet vs. fresh food diets.It was more for my macaws then my QP.Qps have different needs then the macaws.Quakers sre prone to fatty liver, whereas my big guys need more fat.Also the way I feed my fids works for me because i am home all day.I have the time to spend fixing food and cooking for them.Also to clean uo the mess :lol:There is a yahoo group called feedingfeathers that helped me decide on the issue of pellets.What works for me may not work for others.

I agree. I'm really not trying to fearmonger, just spark a debate on what has been a very topical subject lately.

With dog and cat foods you're really limited. It's dry food or canned. But what goes into these diets? Sure I can read a label, but I don't know what half or more of the listed ingredients are, what they are for, and what the long term benefits or downsides are.

Fresh foods for the most part is just a niche in the market, well it was until now, mark my words, many consumers will never go back to the usuall store bought food.

So I ask, do you trust your pellets in this new light? If you do fine, great, I may even side with you when this all shakes out. Pellets sure are convenient and less of a mess. But after I've done what research I can, I may wind up going back to a seed, nut, fresh food diet.

Over the years I've switched Arthur from seeds to pellets and vice versa a couple of times, and I've come to the conclusion that for him, pellets are better. He seems happier when he's on the pellets, we have less aggression and screaming, and he generally seems healthier on them. For the most part he eats fresh veggies, fruits and lots of whatever I happen to be eating (often while standing on my plate), but I like him having some pellets available all the time. It's kind of a saftey net in my mind, if I don't give him the right mix of vitamin X or mineral Y in a given time span, I feel like his pellets will make up for it.

Thinking about it, however, trusting a company with a vested interest in giving my baby proper nutrition seems kind of naive... I think I'll be doing some more research into commercial foods and their alternatives for all of my animals. I mean, I won't eat processed people foods because I think most of them are really bad for you, yet I feed them to my pets.

I'm gluten intolerant too, and I never thought I'd be happy about that before all of this. My family follows the gf diet with me, we agreed that cooking seperate meals and keeping seperate cookwear, utensils and everything was too much work for me. I grow a lot of our produce too, but I'm starting to feel like nothing I don't grow myself is safe. Maybe I should start looking into buying a homestead. I'd have room for more animals that way too!

I feed roudybush Rice its only rice & vitamins. I like to think they are more careful in bird food-because they are so delicate-I pray they are

I can't say that I really have an opinion on this. I do know that I will never feed strictly pellets or strictly seeds. A seed diet is fine, as is a pellet diet. But an all seed or all pellet diet is not good. It is all about the extras...the fresh foods.

Will I stop feeding pellets? Nope, because I haven't seen any solid research on why pellets are bad (aside from the fact that they don't grow naturally).

But if the only reason why you are worried about feeding pellets is because you can't read the ingrediants on the bag, then I suggest you pick up a bag of seeds and read the ingrediants on there. There is a LOT of unpronouncable names. I buy Hagen's Cockatiel seed for my crew (tiels get it on a daily basis, the others get it as a treat) and there are numerous words on there that I have NO clue what it is. Now Hagen is a great brand-name. They are one of the top sellers for bird food (pellet and seed alike). Besides from going to an all natural seed (which I don't even know of a seed like that) or growing your own, I think you'll find that the ingrediants aren't much different then what is in the pellets.

Pellets are certainly a convenience that's for sure but I understand your concern. I think if you were to stop using pellets, you'd have to be very diligent about ensuring that your Fids were eating a well rounded, balanced diet. Quincy recently stopped eating his pellets of his own choice and very quickly ended up with a Vitamin A deficiency.

I decided a few months ago that Iwas taking my birds off of pellets because of all of the chemicals and artificial junk in them. I have switched mine to sprouts, fresh foods and some unsprouted seed. My vet fully supports this as it is closer to what they would get in nature. All of my fids seem to be doing very well with it.

I purchase all of my seeds for sprouting from an online store that sells mostly for human consumption.

Both points well taken. And both have merit. Yes, a pellet diet is well rounded and contains all the right ingredients for a complete diet, but it's the processing I'm concerned about. Despite the additives to seed, I've got to believe they are less processed.

I suppose either way you go, there is a chance of contamination. They could just as easily spray a crop of seed with a deadly fungicide and sell it anyway just to make a profit in some third world country.

Maybe thats the answer. As a collective, pet owners unite and demand that feed be domestically produced, with all domestic ingredients, under at least as strick a guidline as they would have for humans. Do our pets deserve less?

Have you considered or tried Harrison's? My vet is always after me to switch Quincy to Harrison's he is on Roudybush now (when he decides to eat them) Harrison's seems to have more "real food" than some other brands and is entirely organic. Here is the ingredients in their Lifetime

Ground Yellow Corn, *Ground Hulless Barley, *Ground Hulled Millet, *Ground Soybeans,*Ground Shelled Peanuts, *Ground Shelled Sunflower Seeds, *Ground Lentils, *Ground Rice, *Ground Green Peas, *Ground Alfalfa, *Ground Toasted Oat Groats,Chia Seeds, Calcium Carbonate, Montmorillonite Clay,
Ground Dried Sea Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Sea
Salt, *Spirulina, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3
Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B12
Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium
Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, d-Biotin,
Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.
*CERTIFIED ORGANIC INGREDIENT

She particularly likes Harrison's because of the clay (used for digestive tract de-toxification) and the spirulina.

I'm a little surprised by the peanuts & sunflower seed though.

What I have read pellets are better because everything is in one bite. Where seeds-birds tend to pick out what they like. So it not blanced.

Sprout diets scare me because of bact. growning in them and could kill the bird.
If any of you read my rates on the other post-We should eat nothing from Asia nor feed out pets. I thik on the web site howl.911.com there maybe something on birds. I look again.

I do think food manufactures on birds are more carful. DOg & cats- I am glad this happened-Sad for all the pets that were lost. But there is something very worng when you mistreat an animal and can go to jail. But the maufactures get away with feeding euthanized pets ground up into our dog & food &cat food. That is worst than the tabbaco co. They should all be fined &charged with endangering an animal and our government should take some of that 16.4 billion $$ the pet food co. make and put in place controls & guide lines for pet food-like they do or try to do with human.
What really gets me is that the peolpe who lost their pets can't even get monies for their loss-because in some state pet are personal proporty. Worng it just worng.

See now I'm conflicted. I'm getting my Mini-macaw today..and his owner has him on a Harrison's seed mix. I thought I should convert him to pellets but now I'm not so sure. Apparently this guy had a lot of food for me..so it's not a decision I have to make soon..but I'm wondering maybe I should keep him on this seed..and maybe throw in some pellets and hopefully he'll eat some of those as well. I know the guy told me he keeps the ratio of the fatty seeds down compared to the other kinds..so maybe this is the best? Advice from other Macaw owners would be appreciated!

Losing your pets because there was something in the food is horrible. You trust that dog food is safe (and it usually is)- but... they caught it, and are working to figure out what it is. I think now the data is that it is some chemical called melamine which I think is a precursor to plastic.

However that stuff got into the food, it is problems like this that make tougher laws and regulations and ultimately make better products. It's horrible these animals are dying, but all we can do at this point is learn from the tragedy and make sure that the people with the affected product are educated so that no more animals die.

As far as the pellets is concerned- I really had to wait a bit before posting back about this. The reactionary 'well if 1 case then all cases' really ticks me off. It's a huge assumption. The thing is- yes a diet without pellets can be healthier. IF DONE CORRECTLY!

Is is possible to have a organic, perfectly balanced diet? Probably. If you know all the requirements for the animal (hard with birds- research is ongoing). If you are a trained nutritionist (which if you can't tell what the chemicals are, some of which are vitamins, some preservatives, etc, you are NOT). If you can guarantee that anything you grow will not contain bugs, bacteria, acid rain- whatever- that a commercially produced veggie, sprouted seed, etc. must be tested for by regulation. If you have the time and will to make up every day that perfect balance (likely less people on this forum will have the last two). If, if, if.

A breeder, who lives and breathes parrots and has nothing else he or she ever does is probably better off with a completely non-pelleted or 10% pelleted diet, made up with the guidance of a veterinarian nutritionist (in fact, most pellets are not made to support the biological demands of breeding animals). Should the average impulse buyer go without? Hell no. They should be on pellets until the owner gets bored and surrenders the animal or gets more educated.

And I take personal exception to the 'can't trust my vet' comment. They train years to get knowledgeable enough to give sound advice. All the ones I know recommend pellets as the base of a parrot diet, with fruits and veggies as supplements as general advice. If you go more in depth they will say that pellets should only be a percentage, with other fresh foods as a large portion.

Ask your vet about your particular bird. As already noted, macaws need more fat, Quakers much less. Eclectus don't do well at all on pellets and should be given only fresh food. Most Lorikeets obviously can't eat most pellets due to their nectar diets. Cockatiels and budgies need lots of seed in their diets due to their needs. Like I said, the vet needs to try to cover all situations with their general recommendations. Parrots encompass a huge order with two families and hundreds of species. Each one could potentially have a subtly different optimal diet. Pellets are the result of a lot of research.

If you want a pellet that has been thoroughly researched by a bird-loving nutritionist, I suggest TOPS. It's a great pellet, everything is organic and there are no additives, soy or anything. The lady who makes it (Gudrun Maybrum) is almost scary in her dedication to natural remedies and diets.

Again let me say that my feeding mainly fresh foods was a choice I made after lots of re-search about the natural diets of macaws in their native habitats.I purchesed the book "The Large Macaws" as part of my re-search.This book took many years and lots of research for the aurthors to write.It is also quite costly.
Anyway, in the large chapter that covers nutrition explains the difference in where birds come from.A small part ofd the chapter is as follows....

For australian birds it seems that seeds are a ;arge portion of the wild diet of these birds.For neotripical birds (such as my macaws) the mainstay of the diet consits of nuts and much green, living food.


Fruit in the avain diet~ Virtually all psittacines and softbills eat fruit in thier daily diet.Certain species eat quite large amount (toucans, lorie, mynahs)
Cantaloupe is very high in vitamin A and Vitamin c, papya and melons are also a good choice.Although melons have high water content which will be relished in hot summer months
Legumes in the avain diet~
Legumes by definition are plants that have edible seed inside a pod.They include beans,peas,lentils and peanuts.They contain a rich source of incomplete prptien,iron,thiamin,riboflavin,and niacin.Combined with rice (brown or wild) they provide a more complete protien source.There are a wide variety of these to choose from and almost all will be readily excepted by large macaws.Raw legumes are normally not eaten because they contain toxic factors. sprouting is a good choice for legumes.
Nuts in the avain diet~ Nuts do not contain cholesterol.Although they do contain high fat content, only one contains significant amounts of saturated fat which could problems if feed in large amounts to inactive birds.The rest contain mostly monounsaturated fat and polyunsaturated fats which are not a nutritional problem.
Vegetables in the avain diet~
Greens such as dandelion, endive, chard, mustard and beet have high levels of vtamins and minerals.Turnip greens have high levels of calcium.
Broccoli,carrots,peas,beets,corn on the cob (leaving on the husks simulates foraging), pumpkin, all squash and most all other veggies are excellent fresh foods to fed macws.Many can be bought fresh n large amounts during the season then frozen for later use.
Commercial diets~
Over the last several years a proliferation od commercial avain diets have become available.This overwhelming influx of products caused a great deal of discussion about what a
complete" or "balanced" diet is for any particular species of bird.Since lack of knowledge exsits about what these birds eat in the wild, manufactures claims to be un-founded.For those avi-culturists in knowing more about commercial diest, the subsequents data has been completeed.

The following materual is based on information compiled by the Association of Americam Feed Control Officials.Their terms and ingedietns specifications are ubtilized here in oreder to clarify some of the commonly used ingrediets in avain commercial pelleted diets.There are in excess os 23,ooo names and definitions on record at the feed compostion data bank.Only major feed componets are defined in this section.For further information, obtail a copy of the Feed Industry Red Book which is updated yearly.

Dehydrated alfalfa meal or pellets is the aerial portion of the plant, reasonablr clear of other crop plants.weeds and ,old, which has been finelt groun and dried by thermal means.13 to 22 % protien

Beet pulp, dried, plain id the dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned andfreed from crown, leaves and sand, and which has been extracted in the process of making sugar.

Ground corn is the entire kernal ground or chopped. It must contain no less then 5% foreign material.May also appera in ingredient listing as corn meal or corn chop.

Beef suet, No definition is given in the Red Book.By definion "beef suet" is the hard fat deposit around the kidneys and loins of cattle


Basically the book has about 20 pages of definitions and also list the ingerdients of MANY pellets.The authors go one to say that raintree avairy (owned by 2 of the authors) has decided for them selves that instead of trusting processed vitamins and minerals.That providing their birds with the natural mineral and vitamins found in green foods, veggies, fruits, legumes and nuts was the right choice for them.
I too have decided to try that as oppossed to buying commercial pellets...I do offer them but I guess its more as a supplement then a base diet.All these pet food re-calls had made that choice for me so much easier.
The book also goes on to explain that in their opinion its best to re-search the natural habitat of your species and go from there.My Macaws are neo-tropical and Quakers orginated in South america.While I believe their diet should contain some seed..more then likely they would have feedon the lush green food around them.Birds in a much drier climate may have had more seed in the diet.
Anyway, I don't want to add to the much debated pellet vs. seed diet and just wanted to shre some of this info since the topic was here.
Pellets I do believe are better then a seed diet, because they do have the added mineral and vitamins...but the ingredients of most consists of things that started out as regualur seed.. Just ground and added with mineral and vitamins.Not to mention the ease of it.

I spend alot of time cooking and freezing the foods I feed my birds.They have their own freezer in the garage Honestly for the average bird owner pellets are the better choice.Offering the variety of foods I do works for me because Im home with them and do not mind the mess that comes from feeding them this way
My qp gets a higher amount of pellet the my macaws because I am afraid to add to much fats into his diet.

The way I see it is that there has not been enough time to research whats the BEST diet as it has just become a hot topic over the last 10 years or so.Pellets have not been out long enough to see any real long term effects from an all pellets based diet.Most vets will tell you 85% pellets...I think that percentage is much too high.Pellets are by far easier but the ingredients list is so full of artificial stuff that we don't understand.At least in veggies, beans, fruits,grains..I KNOW whats in them

Wow,,,,sorry for the length of this post I have done MONTHS of research and talking to vets, breeders and reading on this topic..by no means am I saying my way is right or any other way is wrong.This was just my choice to all but eliminate pellets from the diet of my birds.I have just started sprouting and so far my fids LOVE the sprouts.
All these re-calls are scary and the mass production of commercial diets is more then likely done the same way as dog/cat food.As difficult as it may be at times..I will stick with my way of feeding
I have just started planting a garden..so I will KNOW where the food comes from.Now if I can just find my green thumb

Again I am not saying pellets are wrong...I do believe they are superior to a seed diet..unless one is willing to take the extra steps to add the large variety of other foods....I also have a HUGE chart listing different foods and the nutrional values of them.I refer to this chart alot when feeding my birds to make sure that the foods I am giving them are high in the vitimen and mineral content the need

Certainly there are some very good vets out there that care greatly for animals and thoroughly researched available commercial foods before deciding to endorse a particular brand(s). Equally certain there are vets that chose the brand of first rep that walked through the door because selling food means more profit for them. Which vet you have is up to your own judgement. It's not so much the vets I have a problem trusting as it is the food manufacturers themselves. This incident is seeming less and less isolated as it evolves, who knows how much has slipped into food without being caught in the past.

Arthur gets about 15% of his diet from pellets, some days he eats most of them, some days he barely touches them, it depends on how much he likes the particular produce mix he gets that day. I'll agree that someone who isn't going to spend the time to research the dietary needs of their flock, make fresh salads or cook at least twice a day, perform the extra cleaning that goes along with a fresh diet, and most importantly go without themselves if the need arises has no business trying to do so, and a quality pellet or seed diet would be best for them and their animals. Maybe most owners aren't willing, and that's why commercial foods are so standard. You don't have to be a nutritionist to understand nutrition, you just have to be willing to research and learn, and accept that it's an ongoing process and you've never learned it all.

I tend to make the comparison in my mind between pellets for animals and fortified cereals for humans. There isn't a single cereal on the market that I can eat due to my food intolerances, so I have to do some extra planning to make sure I get the all nutrients added to cereals. It does take planning and time, and I'd feel better knowing I could grab a quick bowl and have my needs met. It's the same for the animals, I feel better knowing they have the pellets in case I screw up thier fresh diet. I can feel a vitamin deficiency in myself, I might miss it in my pets. I'm going to continue to feed pellets, but I do need to research them more, I've kind of taken them for granted, assumed that picking out a non-dyed quality pellet was enough.

Thanks for the link to TOPS Alusdra, I am ordering some. Not only does it look like a great pellet, it's actually less expensive than what Arthur is eating now. With the way he gets bored with a particular kind of pellets after a few days anyway, having another food in my cupboard is never a bad thing.

On thing I did miss in my quote that Speers does say that ONLY TOP and harrisons uses all organic ingredients.

Yep, it's all very scary. Wanna hear something REALLY scary? Think of what we're feeding our human kids. Take milk for example...all the growth hormones and antibiotics the actual cow is given, then factor in the pesticides and fertilizers and the bacteria in the feed they're fed...and we knowingly, willingly, and enthusiastically feed it to our children. You can't even buy a piece of fresh fruit anymore without having to worry about pesticides, genetic engineering, fertilizers, etc used to grow it.

I feed my fids pellets mainly. Mainly because I simply cannot afford at the moment to feed fresh foods for their main diet. Once our financial situation changes, we will be feeding more fresh and cooked foods. Will I stop feeding pellets completely? Doubtful. I won't even pretend to know all the nutritional requirements of the different species of parrots. I simply have to hope and pray that the people with a LOT more knowledge then me are doing a good job.

As far as dogs and cats go, well there are options other than the processed dog foods, even the holistic types. The absolute best diet I have ever found is or was called the BARF diet (Bones And Raw Foods). Raw meat (beef, organ meats like liver, intestines, gizzards, turkey, chicken, fish, pork), non-weight bearing bones like chicken and turkey wings and necks, ox tails, raw fresh fruits and veggies. The trick is, you can't just cut up a cantalope and throw it in their bowl. You have to puree them. Their stomachs are not designed to digest the cellular walls of plants, so you have to puree it, practically liquify it. Also, raw eggs, yogurt, fish oils, etc. Then you have to determine the dietary needs of your pet (large breed active working dogs for example have different dietary needs than a small toy breed lap dog). Protein levels, carb levels, vitamin requirements, etc. Not an easy diet to plan, and many vets will disagree with it.

I have issues with most dog and cat veterinarians in general when it comes to nutritional discussions. The fact is, they spend very little time in school (unless they are specialized) studying actual nutrition. Then, they do make profits from selling the particular brands in their stores. Ever notice those tend to be the ones they recommend the most? Look at Science Diet's ingredients...a LOT of corn and fillers and other garbage, but how many vets swear by it?

Take, for example, my first great dane. He suffered from chronic irritable bowel syndrome as well as severe food allergies. If he so much as ate a handful of Katie's cheerios, he would be sick for days. We tried soooo many different diets, all recommended by different vets, and he never improved. Finally, I began researching a raw diet for him. We switched him to that, and he began to blossom. He went from a sickly, skinny, chronically ill dog living on medications to a beautiful, energetic, reasonably healthy dog. The daily repeated vomiting and diarrhea lessened considerably. His coat was beautiful, and he could actually play without becoming fatigued in 15 minutes. It wasn't easy. It took a lot of work preparing his meals, not to mention the purchase of a chest freezer simply to store his food. Traveling became practically impossible, due to his dietary needs. Ever try traveling and bringing 3 lbs of meat, fruits and veggies for every day you're gone? Plus keeping it cold and fresh? Then the expense involved. Granted, we were saving money on vet bills, but his food bill almost rivaled our own. He was well worth it, and was our only dog. He only lived to be 3, but we rest easy knowing that we did everything humanly possible to help him have a good life. Every vet we spoke with after we switched him to raw foods disagreed with us and worried about salmonella, e coli, etc. They insisted we feed him the specialized prescription diets they sold. Fact is...salmonella and e coli are not much of a concern with dogs and cats. Their stomachs are shorter than ours, so food doesn't stay in their system as long. Then, their stomach acids are much much stronger than ours. In most cases, there's no need to worry about e coli or salmonella.

Then there's the "chicken bones will splinter...never feed raw bones". Ummm...that's a myth. Raw bones don't splinter...cooked bones do. Raw non-weight bearing bones (the neck, wings, back) are quite safe to feed. My dogs get raw chicken bones a lot, and they love them and have never had a problem. Feeding bones also helps to teach your dog to chew it's food. Most dogs don't chew, they gulp and swallow. Wet foods are particularly bad because they don't help clean the teeth and there is absolutely no need to chew it at all.

Anyhow, my point is, educate yourself as much as possible, but simply switching to an all fresh food diet isn't as easy as it sounds. Learn the nutritional requirements of each species you own, factor in the monetary cost involved, the amount of work, and the space factors. Do you have room to store that much fresh food? For those with only one bird it may not be THAT difficult, but for those with multiple birds and multiple species...whole other ball of wax.

That's what I meant by 'needing to be a nutritionist'- you need to do a lot of research and at the least consult someone who is one. You're right- most vets don't have much schooling past vet school (which is a lot all by itself- but doesn't teach much about nutrition, historically). If you can get a good diet together and stick to it, more than likely it will be better for your animals. But it is A LOT of work.

We had a dog with colon cancer (I think- it was in the GI anyway) and we had to feed him ground turkey and rice with Metamucil for almost a year to keep him healthy as possible until we had to euthanize him- it was a lot of work. 1/2 our fridge was dog food- most of our freezer, too. As for feeding it for lifetime- I had almost 6 year old gerbils that ate pretty much what I did as I was always running out of their food at school and instead feeding them food snagged from the cafeteria. Was this a main factor in their longevity? I don't know, but it probably was a big factor.

IMO- if you can find a vet open to the natural diet type things, then keep with them! But remember- most vets will advocate the diets they sell as it is almost impossible to guarantee that the owners will stick to a home-cooked regimen. Anyone who's been in any kind of job where there are take home instructions can tell you that people are a PITA. "What do you mean clean the computer of spyware- you did that, right?" no- you have to do it periodically, especially if you insist on downloading weatherbug. "Why is my dog insane- you trained him, didn't you?" yes- but you have to reinforce him and not reward all the crap you told me to fix in the first place...

As for TOPs- I'll probably switch to that once the pellets the rescue gave me run out (I think that may be Harrisons, actually...)

I have issues with Harrison, and I'm not a huge believer in the "ORGANIC CERTIFICATION".

When discussing my plans for a mainstay of fresh foods in the diet of my macaws..our vet wasn't against it but made sure i knew how difficult it could be.Its really not too bad..monthly trip to this great produce stand near me that also has raw nuts and seeds of all kinds.I actually have an account with them and just pay it off every 3-4 months.She will allow payments as well...sa long as balance is paid in full after 6 months.She will also let me know of what days her and her husband go "to market" that way I can ask her to keep a look out for anything I have been looking for.She gets me endive and palm nuts on special order once a month.Of course the silly birds ate their palm nut stash this month during the closet break in
If not for this wonderful mom and pop stand and he willingness to help in my hunt for certain foods my diet for the fids would be much harder then it is.She even brought me back kelp and another form of algea that starts with a s? It wa listed in my book about nutrition...all three birds decided to try it out as wall paper..not a very appealing color

I eat and enjoy a lot of foods from Asia... just because one bad thing happens to our food supply doesn't mean you should boycott an entire nation worth of food. Canada and the US both wound up with cases of Mad Cow Disease which is thought to cause Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease in humans. Does this mean we should boycott all beef from North America? California wound up with Ecoli in their spinach... people got sick and died from that - does that mean we never eat produce from California again? Every single day there are mistakes that happen in our human food processing lines and our food supply. This was 1 bad ingredient received by a pet food company. It just happened to be rotten luck that they made SO MANY brands of pet food.

There are controls and guidelines in place for pet foods. The news here has done several studies and reports about the accusations of euthanized pets being in pet food and those accusations were found to be false. If you have a study that suggests otherwise, I'd be interested to read it. The only cases where the feed industry have admittedly fed animals ground up portions of slaughtered animals is in farm feed (cows and chickens). The feeding of cow byproducts to cows has since stopped now that scientists think it causes Mad Cow Disease.

Dog and cat owners may be proclaiming right now that they are willing to pay whatever it takes to keep their pets healthy but I beg to differ. These same owners are the ones that bought the 60 cent dog food at the grocery store instead of the $2.00 organic human-grade pet food from the specialty shop. While everyone might be shelling out the extra cash for organic and all natural dog food right now, in 6 months my guess is 80% of those who have made the switch go back to grocery store brands. People went back to eating spinach after the ecoli scare, they went back to eating Jack In The Box hamburgers after the ecoli scare at that restaurant and there will still be dozens of steaks on dozens of BBQs this summer despite scares over Mad Cow and CJD.

Was it tragic? Of course it was tragic but no more tragic than the 600 people who got sick and/or died from the Ecoli outbreak at Jack In The Box in 1993. It was a mistake. Mistakes happen, they always have, they always will. Unless you plan to grow your own food in the finest unadulterated pesticide free soil using fresh spring water imported from Europe and farmed in a hospital sterile environment you will be at risk that something bad will happen to the food that you, your pets or your loved ones eat. Should this have happened? No, of course not, any number of steps could have been taken along the way to prevent it but hindsight is always 20/20.

That being said... if Zupreem came out with a "premium" line using human-grade ingredients and fewer chemical additives, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I have given Harrison's a try and Captain HATES it so I am sticking with Zupreem. Captain is just too picky to put on an all "people" food diet. She won't eat most veggies despite my constant efforts to get her to try them.

Crazymommy my comments are not all directed just towards you... your sentiments are ones I have heard from several different people (off the forum as well). I would however be interested to read the source where you found the information on pets in in the pet food if you have it.

I am glad you ejoy food from Asia. Just becareful. Have you ever been there? I have. All our maunfactoring is done overseas. These factories have poluted all of ASIA.They have no rules in ASIA.It all about $$. Yes there are guidline set none are followed. You can surf the web and see what is put into pet food. Thats correct about mad cow- and it's done with dog and cat food ,farm fish food. go to howl911.com. Let face it pet food is a 16.4 BILLION $$ a year with no regulation-because if ther was this would not have taken a month to find out. Irganic pet food is not the same ans people organic -there are no stamps on organic pet food. People would like to belive alot of the ad out there when it come to pet food. All I am say IS educate yourself know what your eating and feeding your pets. Oh do You know the PCB that fill the water ways in asia. Yes stuff happens. But this stuff should never have. When I had dogs I made them food. my brids get pellet and my food. WHy do you think there are so Many kids being born today with food allergies,ADD and Autisum
IT OUR FOOD! Take a look at 8 year old girls they have boobs already-When I was 8 my friends and I did not go shopping for bras or have to worry about a period. ITs THE FOOD. Jamie just becareful you are what your eat. Be careful.

The problem with pet food in general (at least in the states) is that it isnt regulated with the same scrutiny that human food is. I am really not sure about the pet foods that are labled human grade or safe for human consumption tags that I do see on some of the pet foods that are marketed.

Feeding birds non pelleted food is alot of work yet once you get a system downpat its possible and the workload gets alot easier. It also helps me understand human nutrition as well because it forces me to take care of myself. A large variety of fruits, vegetables meats etc...you get the picture.

I am part of a group called feeding feathers (see http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FeedingFeathers/) and although I am not an active participant in the group I do follow their diet ideas etc.

I do still endorse a pellet diet for those that really dont have the time to muck around in the kitchen or cook. Yes there is a risk involved in feeding a bird pellets especially now that other pet foods have been exposed as being harmful or have proven to have harmed pets but for those people that are feeding their fids a strictly seed diet is just as harmful at least I think so.

If you have a food dehydrator and a food processor (two things that I find really helpful in healthy bird food preparation especially in the fall when produce is abundant)
as well as freezer bags

Those early maturity issues have nothing to do with food made or packaged in asia. They are a direct result of growth hormones approved by the FDA for use in the United States and Canada. Autism is now suspected to be a cause of mercury that was released into North American waters. We made our own bed on both of those issues and now we're mad that we have to lie in it. I have a great many personal opinions on the whole ADHD issue that don't relate to food in the slightest, but I won't share those here.

Please be careful about the websites you read as facts. While I don't argue that there could be a lot more done to regulate the sales of pet food... a lot of that website looks to be fear-mongering. Look hard enough for a problem anywhere and you'll find it. What happened was unfortunate and yes, more can be done for the food and drug industry but I want to see the scientific studies and reports that definitively prove that there is meat from euthanized pets in pet food. Because they've done the studies here and found all of those accusations to be false. I tend to believe the news on this one because quite frankly the media would have a hayday if there WAS pet meat in pet food. It'd be one of the biggest stories of the year. Show me the scientific documentation and I will gladly eat my hat. Until then, I doubt there is a company in existance that will risk using the pet equivalent of soylent green.

I fail to see why people think Menu Foods, or any pet food company is being deliberately shady in their dealings. Why on earth would they risk the lives of the cliental that give them business? No company worth as much as Menu Foods is going ot be stupid enough to do something that could put them out of business deliberately. They have a vested interested in 1. Staying in business and 2. Keeping pet owners happy so that they continue buying the products and 3. Keeping pets healthy so pet owners stay happy.

I think big business and especially the food business is an easy target because they're worth a lot of money. Pet food is an easier target because yes, the regulations are far more lax for pet food. However that is because nobody wants to pay $3-$5 a can for pet food. If you want pet food made with human grade ingredients with the same regulations that human food must meet be prepared to pay triple or even quadruple what you are paying for pet food now. Given that a very small percentage of the population actually feeds the more expensive "specialty" foods be it raw diet, organic or human-grade dog and cat food I'd say the market isn't ready for that kind of cost.

If you choose to feed your dogs a natural human grade diet that is fair enough and your decision, but I don't think that pet food companies should be villianized because 1 bad thing happened. Millions of pets have been raised and thrived on pet foods in North America. Millions of kids have grown up eating Tuna without developing autism and millions of girls have grown up eating beef without having breasts at age 9. Sorry but 500 pets that died as a result of an unfortunate mistake doesn't undo the fact that millions of pets have been perfectly fine eating packaged pet food products for years. It was a tragic thing for the 500 people that lost pets and I would be heartbroken if I was one of them but in the grand scheme of things that number is extremely small.



If Captain would eat it I'd try it Impy but she won't. She picks out what she wants and will starve for the rest of the day instead of eating what is given to her. So instead I stick with Zupreem supplimented with fresh fruits and veggies as she'll accept them.

jamie and thats the right thing to do what works for one wont work for another.

That's what I figured... now if Quakers could live off Kraft Dinner... that would be a whole other story. No problems getting her to eat THAT

everyone has valid points in this discussion and I really enjoy reading everyones thoughts on this.

Everything we put in our mouths or our pets mouths/beaks has a risk because nothing is really sureproof and everything can be harmful to you.

Reading labels can be tricky. Other than country of origin there is no real way to tell if standards are met. Case in point was with vietnam and formaldehyde which was found in their noodles several years ago. We have had food scares in the states too by united states agricultural practices or lack thereof as well.

To be fair companies like menu foods had no intention of killing any animals. This incident has really hurt their company and people have lost trust with them as well as a multitude of other pet food manufactuers. The only thing that really bugs me is the politics of the entire thing we export our wheat because of its abundance so why are we not buying wheat gluten from the states. I am sure its because it was cheaper to obtain overseas.

On a side note what do you think of bird pellets such as these that claim they have their own mill etc?
http://www.lakesbirdfood.com/
Keep in mind that all pellet websites have ways of making their product appealing and glamorous just to make the sale.

Very true The important thing is the health of the bird.If the bird won't eat a variety of foods...then pellets are whats best.
It took me some time to get a system down.But now that I have it figured out LOL and a chest freezer in the garage.I cook once a month..different veggie mixes, pasta mixes, rice mixes, mashes, beans mixes..ect. and freeze then in smaller bags.I also visit the produce market once a month and cube, slice or grate the stuff I get and freeze it as well.Cantaloup and honey dew ffrozen with the rind on.They have a GREAT time picking the meat of the rind.Dodger will toss the rind after all seeds and meat are eaten...the big guys play with the rind for awhile LOL
I have also discovered as I pay more attention to the nutrients in foods, its helped me not only fed my fids better, but my family as well
I had a spaghetti mix out the other day.Mixed with peppers(green,red,yellow) broccoli,celery,sugar snap peas,shelled pine nuts...and hubby began picking from the bowl...so for lunch that day we ate the mix with some italian dressing and grated cheese LOL It was good

Gypsygal I get a feeling you do things the same way I do. I think my fids really helped me think about my own and my familys health too. Thats where my food processor comes into play I can mash stuff up really fine and cook it in sauces and my family is none the wiser that there are healthy veggies in it lol. The same for my fids I process a variety of fruits and veggies and then use my dehydrator (you know that plastic fruit leather thing they give with the dehydrator) and spread it and dehydrate it and then crumble it so its sort of a pellet of sorts that my birds all really love. It just looks really fugly because when you mash it all up it turns a weird green.

I have the processor and the dehydrator as well.I love the processor Makes grest mashes and I can add all the greens I want and the fids eat it well Love the green beaks when they are done
I have also made just plain jerky(without all the seasoning) for the birds.Sebastion absolutly LOVES it! It is a special treat and not one they get often.

Now, having been in the feed industry for 10 years I can say...Yes, the pet food industry is regulated like the human industry. The company I worked for was a manufacturer also...there are some very STRICK rules and regs to pet foods. Mad Cow..well that was caused from a very old technology that the US abandoned 6 years prior to the break out in Europe. They had found new ways to increase the protien and cal/phos contents and also increase the Digestable Energy with out using meat and bone meal. But there has to be a problem, before something gets "Fixed".



Granted there is a lower standard for animal consumption ingredients than HUMAN consumption ingredients. normally, the larger companies get the #2 grade, which is still human consumable, but most consumers wouldn't eat grade two in the US. There are defintions to how ingredients are to be named and listed on lables, and those guidelines are very very strict. My example will be this: you look at a lable and see Chicken as the first ingredient on a dog food lable. We think...ah meat...well sort of...chicken is the entirety of the animal, meat, bones, skin and sometimes feathers (no heads of feet), and they contain a lot of water, so it is the heaviest ingredient and is listed first, not highest volume of ingredient. Chicken meal=chicken meat with the water removed. Mechanically separated chicken=bones removed but everything else, chicken by product meal=beaks, feet, guts, feathers



Now the same thing happens with grains. Gluten, is the most diegstable part of a grain, and the hightest energy. Corn gluten is the number one gluten used in human and pet foods. Wheat gluten is less expensive and sometimes substitued (yes a lot of companies cost formulate). Wheat is often the grain used to poisen rodents, and some tainted grain may have been processed for it's gluten. Yes, it can happen, and it did. There will be a new system to test for this.



Is there reason for concern with our parrot diets? Yes, but it'sn ot a HUGE concern. Most of the diets are corn and peanut based. Wheat gluten isn't even on the list. If you are concerned at all, call the manufacturer of your pellet and see what they have to say.

Ok now I can bug you with tons of questions since you know about the industry. I still am trying to differentiate between food grade and feed grade when it comes to pet vs human food. What exactly is the difference? Does this mean the standards for pet food is different than food we feed humans etc? Its just very confusing for me because from what I gather which my info has only been from media reports that the FDA requirements for pet food is alot different than for human food?

The grand total of tainted wheat gluten was 792 tons which was shipped from china between the dates of nov 3 2006 until january 2007. The first problem was at customs where it had whats only reported as 'minimal labeling'. And with imports the rules are either edible or non edible and I guess they assumed this was edible so it was sent to the processing plants which also package food for human consumption as well as for pets because with wheat gluten there is no human/animal grade its all just food grade or non edible(more confusing right?) Also note chemnutra in its press release stated it incorrectly when they assured the population that the gluten itself was only shipped to pet food manufacturing facitlities which makes it even more confusing in the sense that its becoming who do you believe as the information is so conflicting as everyone races to gain consumer confidence again.

We import 70% of our wheat gluten from Asia and the 30% that is produced here is most def food grade only.

Will we ever know if contaminated wheat gluten leeched into our human food supplies because renal failure can be a slow process yet it also could be that the dying dogs and cats saved humans by making companies aware of the problem before it spread any further.

I am not really paranoid about it being in bird pellets. Even tho wheat gluten can be hidden under the name saiten as well its rarely used in the production of pellets.

Can the gov do more to keep food supplies safe? Probably. This might just be their wake up call and discussions such as these do help keep things in motion.

With grains, they are graded by screening. If they pass through a certain size screen (determined by what kind of grain it is) then according to how they passed, they are then sampled randomly from bins (core samples) and then weighed, heated, moisture content taken. The parameters must fall into certain perameters (each is different from the kind of grain). #1 is human edible and premium (also used in bulk bins and high quality product, what is on our shelves), #2 is human edible ingredient quality (usually ground and used as ingredient in comercial settings, the economy priced products) #2 is also used for top quality animal feeds. The cheap pet foods use #3 and grain screenings (usually the reminants of containers). Not to say that the product is BAD, just it passed all the screens.

I can imagine that there will be a new labeling law passed for imports, and a quality test done before edible and non-edible lables can be applied at our ports.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Yea I am guessing that they will have to make new labeling and also have customs agents more on the ball too with incoming products. I guess as of now the FDA has blocked gluten imports from china. I know that menu foods didnt do it deliberatly and they are making promises to make things right with pet owners whose pets were effected by the contamination and stuff like this can be disasterous to a corporations livelyhood and peoples jobs will really be effected by it which is never a good thing.