I add ACV to my boys water and I wash their fresh veggies with it of a morning also on a hot day I add ice cubes to the fresh veggies that has ACV in them to keep the veggies fresh for longer....
Here is a very good link on ACV....

http://www.motherearthnews.com/forums/topi...p?TOPIC_ID=6607

Majj- Thanks. I use it on myself when I feel I am getting a cold. All this I can do for Buku-thanks a buch.

I think I should move to OZ. America is so not with it-we believe our BS. Ha....He...

Our store veterinarian told us to do that for our fids, we've been doing it for over a year and it makes a huge difference!

Yep, been doing this also for over a year now...

Me too! Yoda drinks from a water bottle and I add ACV to it. I did the same with Baby and she like it(and I dont think she ever used to drink from a water bottle)

I've looked for the unpasturized but can't find it anywhere, can I use the regular stuff that you buy for cleaning the cage (Iike the smell).

No...it has to be Organic ACV with the "mother" that is the stuff on the bottom that has all the good properties. Health food store should carry it..I get Braggs.

I seem to recall in a previous discussion of ACV that Andie said something along the lines of ACV killing ALL stuff in the digestive tract - both the bad AND good bacteria, and that perhaps it is best not to use it every day. Maybe that is why one of our local breeders (and the bird shop owner) suggests a program of ten days of lacto added to the drinking water followed by ten days of ACV added to the drinking every three months. The rest of the time, nothing is added. Just a thought.

Update - FOUND it: http://www.quakerparrots.com/forum/index.p...wtopic=6752&hl=

Thats interesting I will ask my vet as he is the one that suggested I use it ..I also add a probotic as a maintanance dose to the water ..

After reading this about killing good bacteria I wrote to our vet here is his reply ..I feel o.k about using it daily now ...

Hey Marion

Sorry for so long before a reply - I have been a little run down myself this last fortnight

Apple cider vinegar does NOT kill any pathogens in the GIT. Its action is to alter the pH of the gut somewhat to make it less favourable for the bad bacteria and yeasts to flourish. Just about all birds will have a low number of dangerous bugs and yeasts in their gut, which by a variety of mechanisms are prevented from growing to huge numbers. Competition from "good" bacteria, particular combinations or types of foods (especially lowering the proportion of simple carbohydrates), and gastrointestinal pH all play part of a protective role.

I know of very little research to guide me in answering whether you should use it continuously or episodically. I think theoretical arguments could be mounted for either position. I see no problems arise when we use it continuously, and so I see no reason to suggest you use episodically if it is currently no problem to you! Always remember to use it at no more than 1:20, and I use it at 1:40. If I ever learn anything different then you will be the first to know!

I think the use of St Mary's thistle and probiotics are entirely justifiable as well. Cinnamon is a v special spice with an increasing number of useful health-promoting properties, and I think it is a useful dietary additive. Dr Harrison's information is extremely useful, but always should be viewed in the context of his business trying to sell some stuff. While the information is always interesting and has some basis in science, I think the benefits that flow can sometimes be overstated. He is a v good veterinarian however!
Mark

Thanks for the update Majj

See, I tried to tell ya guys it was ok...LOL I been putting in the Tiels water for almost a year now..infact I am going to start the QP back on it too...its great stuff!!

Thanks Marion for confirming that as this is what my breeder friend told me...

Well it doesn`t hurt to double check does it I am grateful for advice we get here and if it differs from what I have been told the best idea is to re:Check as sometimes newer ideas come up ..I just got back from Doctors/banking /post office and shopping and am exausted so going for a cuppa and play with the boys will come back tonight to read and post didn`t even get time to check in on the daily check in post ....
Busy Busy Busy....Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Cool, great to know! I appreciate the info Majj! I may start adding it to General and Sammie's water dishes to start. I know I feel great taking it!

Bumping for new members to read..

... great info on ACV! What is the ratio to put in my baby bird's water dish? Karin & Kiwi

Thanks for the tip, Majj!

Post No 10 is what my vet said to me....

*Always remember to use it at no more than 1:20, and I use it at 1:40. If I ever learn anything different then you will be the first to know!*

I put a capfull into 2 quarts of water...so I'd say mine is weak, I do know you can use 1/8 cup to a gallon.. thats what my breeder friend uses

bump for new members

I use 3 scant tablespoons per 1 gallon. Use it everyday. I use braggs also.

Some poster's said they take ACV right along with their birds, why? What's it doing for you? For instance; why take it for a cold? And how much? Has it done any damage to your teeth enamal?

I use it in my drinking water too...


Vinegar
A Natural Approach to Avian Management
By Wanda Barras

Many herbalists recommend the use of raw, unpasteurized, unheated, organic apple cider vinegar as an important dietary ingredient for humans, farm animals and pets, including birds. The Encyclopedia of Natural Pet Care describes apple cider vinegar in this way: “Long a folk remedy, cider vinegar has been shown to improve the health of dairy cows, horses, dogs and other animals. It reduces common infections, aids whelping, improves stamina, prevents muscle fatigue after exercise, increases resistance to disease and protects against food poisoning. Cider vinegar is rich in the vitamins, minerals and trace elements found in apples, especially potassium; it normalizes acid levels [pH] in the stomach, improves digestion and the assimilation of nutrients, reduces intestinal and fecal odors, helps cure constipation, alleviates some of the symptoms of arthritis and helps prevent bladder stones and urinary tract infections.”
Vinegar Through The Ages

Vinegar has been used to cure ailments for centuries. For hundreds of years, folk medicine practitioners have recommended daily doses of apple cider vinegar, not only for specific medical problems, but also for overall food health. In Asia vinegar is called the friend of Chinese herbs because it is often used to process herbal preparations. It is also successfully used in modern Chinese medicine.

Historically the origin of vinegar was never specifically noted. Vinegar was probably discovered when one of our ancestors found that wine exposed to the air would turn sour, thereby creating vinegar. It is amongst the oldest of foods and medicines know to man. For its healing ways, vinegar has been used for thousands of years. In 400 B.C, Hypocrites, known as the father of medicine, treated patients with vinegar, making it one of the world’s first medicines. Throughout biblical times, vinegar was successfully used to treat infections and wounds. For centuries medical textbooks have listed various ways to use vinegar. These uses include everything from keeping a sharp mind to purifying the waters of the body and to easing pain and alleviating dozens of other ailments. Modern laboratory analysis verifies the antibacterial and antiseptic properties of vinegar. Many of the old-time uses are just as applicable now as they were centuries ago. (Moore xii)
Natural Apple Cider Vinegar One Mother Natures Most Perfect Foods

Fermenting sweet juice makes vinegar. The juice turns to wine or cider which is allowed to ferment a second time until the alcohol mixes with oxygen in the air, changing it into acetic acid and water. Natural---that is, undistilled, organic, raw, apple cider vinegar is often called one of Mother Nature’s most perfect foods. Apple cider vinegar should be made from fresh, organic, crushed apples that are allowed to mature naturally in wooden barrels. Natural apple cider vinegar, found in health food stores, should be a rich amber color with the “mother” quite visible as sentiment on the bottom. The strength of vinegar is important. All varieties of vinegar contain about 4 to 7 percent acetic acid, with 5 percent being the most common amount. Acetic acid is what gives vinegar its tart and sour taste.

There is nothing beneficial about commercial distilled vinegars except for pickling, cleaning and disinfection ---they have no health value! They do not contain the health values of organic, raw apple cider vinegar with the mother still intact and viable. Distilled white vinegar and cider vinegar sold in supermarkets are considered “dead” vinegars with none of the enzymes and other live factors that make raw, unpasteurized vinegars so valuable. Distilling removes the beneficial “mother” from the vinegar, thereby, destroying the powerful enzymes and life giving minerals such as potassium, phosphorus, natural organic sodium, magnesium, sulphur, iron copper, natural organic flourine, silicon, trace minerals, pectin and other powerful nutrients. Also destroyed are natural malic and tartaric acids, which are important in fighting body toxins and inhibiting unfriendly bacteria growth (Bragg 1- 4).

Apple cider vinegar has shown to be an extremely valuable constituent in the body’s biochemical operations and an essential building block in the construction of many complex substances in the body. Vinegar is low in calories and carbohydrates but does contain small amounts of calcium, phosphorus, iron and, of course, lots of potassium. A cup of ACV is 98.8% water, has 34 calories, a trace of protein, and no fat. (Moore p.viii) Acetic acid, the principal constituent in vinegar, plays an important role in the release of energy from fats and carbohydrates. It is of primary importance in the body’s metabolism.
Apple Cider Vinegar Can make Any Living Thing Healthier

Dr. D.C. Jarvis, MD who wrote “Folk Medicine, A Vermont Doctor’s Guide to Good Health” and “Arthritis and Folk Medicine”, is completely convinced that apple cider vinegar could make any living thing healthier. He believes, Potassium, which is found in just the right amounts in natural apple cider vinegar “is so essential to the life of every living thing and that with out it there would be no life. Potassium is the most important of all minerals that are necessary for good health.” Potassium’s main function is to promote cell, tissue and organism growth. It is necessary to replace dead cells and tissue. There is no better source of potassium than vinegar---particularly natural apple cider vinegar.

Dr. Jarvis believes Apple cider vinegar can help fight infection, simply by keeping fluids where they belong---in body cells, not in bacteria. Bacteria need moisture to thrive. As bacteria multiply, they will pull necessary fluids from healthy cells in order to flourish, particularly during times of stress when resistance is low. Stress is a major agent in causing a previously sub-clinical problem to break into a full-blown illness. If the process goes unchecked illness will occur. In order to defeat bacterial infections and illness it is important to keep moisture in the cells and prevent germs from depleting that moisture. According to Dr. Jarvis: “If there is enough potassium in each body cell, it will draw moisture from the [harmful] bacteria, instead of the bacteria taking moisture from the body cells.” Therefore by providing natural sources of potassium in the diet (fruit, berries, sprouts, edible leaves, edible roots, etc.) and including apple cider vinegar to that diet the body cells are provided with the necessary moisture-attracting potassium. It is interesting to note that many traditional medicines used to combat bacterial illness also work by depriving bacteria of moisture and thus keeping fluids inside the cells (O’Brien p40)
Acidic pH Balance Will Discourage Bacteria, Yeast & Fungal Growth

Apple cider vinegar destroys microorganisms, including bacteria, fungi, viruses and others, and prevents poisons from reaching the rest of the systems of the body. It has been proven to inhibit the growth of gram-negative bacilli, Pseudomonas, and Candida. The acid nature of vinegar makes the digestive tract environment unpleasant for germs and fungus. Apple cider vinegar has proven to be a natural treatment (and preventative) in simple cases of avian pediatric digestive disorders. Dr. Jarvis through his own research believes that apple cider vinegar will lower bloods natural alkalinity, bringing it closer to a natural healthy acid state. A naturally acidic digestive tract digestive, with the correct pH balance, will discourage bacteria and is less likely to grow yeast and fungus. Apple cider vinegar can assist the natural process of breaking food in the stomach. The acidic qualities of ACV will help break down protein, in the digestive system, for absorption into the bloodstream.
Apple Cider Vinegar On The Farm

For the past year and a half I have routinely added apple cider vinegar, to my baby birds’ hand-feeding formula, to all drinking water and sprinkled some on the food of the animals here at our aviary and small dairy farm. These animals include several species of breeding exotic parrots, chickens, ducks, dogs, cats and LaMancha dairy goats. The vinegar keeps the water bowls and bottles very clean and sanitary and the animals seem to love it--- of course, the nutritional and health benefits are a plus. Apple cider vinegar added to young birds drinking water encourages early weaning and healthy weight gain and they will feather out faster. Adding a little raw apple cider vinegar to the hand-feeding formula water can prove nutritionally beneficial and help to inhibit the growth of yeast, fungus and bacteria. In formula a ratio of about ¼ tsp per 4 oz water is best.

You may safely add cider vinegar to food and/or drinking water, starting with small amounts and building up to ½ to 1 teaspoon per 15 pounds of body weight or about 1 tsp apple cider vinegar (health food store variety best) to 8 oz water. That is about ¼ cup per gallon of water and/or you may sprinkle or spray small amounts on bird’s food. Gradually add small doses to food over time, you can help even the most finicky eater to accept this. Do not use metal food or water dishes when using vinegar, stainless steel is OK.
Hygiene Is Important

Proper hygiene is important in maintaining avian health. The environment we provide for our birds is totally different from the wild. Birds in the wild are acclimated to the bacteria found in their natural environment but its body has no experience in providing immunity to the bacteria commonly found in the unnatural environment we provide for them. That includes humanly transmitted bacteria, normal tap water, unsanitized food dishes, cages and the list goes on. (Doane 24)

Be aware that most of the recommended disinfectants we use in our aviaries and nurseries are harmful when ingested or even inhaled. I am by no means discouraging the use of these proven disinfecting agents, but I do urge caution when using any chemical. There are times when these strong disinfectants are recommended and even warranted. Although,they need not be used to excess. When called for, use them judiciously. I have herd horror stories of overzealous but well-meaning breeders who have had bad experiences with disinfectants while sanitizing aviaries, nurseries and equipment. When using strong disinfectants, such a Lysol, One-Stroke-Environ, Chlorox, Betadine and Wavecide-01, etc., read and follow directions carefully, make sure area is well ventilated and take pains to rinse thoroughly.
White Vinegar As a Cleaning Agent

Plain old white distilled vinegar will help reduce the toxic load in our environment. Vinegar is an organic, biodegradable, nontoxic substance. Vinegar can be used routinely and safely in the aviary and nursery as an effective cleaning and disinfecting agent. I do recommend for resistant bacteria and chronic problems the use of Wavicide or a similar product. Or, when dealing with a severe problem such as an epidemic outbreak, disinfect with a product such as One-Stroke-Environ. For routine cleaning and disinfecting plain inexpensive old vinegar is the way to go.

Food and water dishes should be cleaned daily and disinfected once a week. While servicing cages use a spray bottle of vinegar or vinegar and water as a daily spray and wipe for food and water dishes. Spray a small amount on container and wipe with a clean rag or paper towel.

To clean and disinfect food and water utensils: add 1-cup of white vinegar and 1 tablespoon of liquid soap to a sink of hot water. To remove stains and hard water film and as a weekly disinfectant soak cleaned dishes in straight white vinegar for several hours or overnight. Rinse well. You may want to periodically, every week, every other week or once a month disinfect with a commercial disinfectant.

Clean cages, perches, etc.: clean with a solution of half vinegar and water. For hard to remove grime let the solution soak for a few minutes before sprinkling with baking soda. Then scrub with a rag or brush to remove crud. Rinse with clean water.

Stainless steel or any metal cage cleaner/polish: Combine 2 tablespoons of cream of tarter and enough vinegar to make a paste. Rub the paste on and let dry. Wash off with warm water and buff with a soft, dry clothe.

Brass cleaner/polish: This may be a little time consuming for cages but it does work. Mix 1 cup powdered laundry detergent with 2 tablespoons of salt ion a glass or enamel pan. Stir in ¼ cup of white vinegar and slowly add 4 cups of boiling water until soap is dissolved. Let cool. Pour into a clean glass jar and cover tightly. Label and keep out of the reach of children and animals. To use shake well and pour about 1 teaspoon of the solution onto a soft clothe and then apply to brass. Rub gently, turning the rag often. Apply more of the solution until the tarnish is gone. Buff with a clean, dry cloth until brass is bright and shiny.

Aviary and nursery wall cleaner: Mix together ¼ cup baking soda, ½ cup white vinegar, 1-cup household ammonia and 1-gallon hot water. Use a sponge or brush to clean dirt, grime and fingerprints. It is always a good idea to have a room well ventilated when cleaning.

Aviary and nursery floor cleaner: Mix together ¼ cup liquid soap, ½ cup vinegar, and 2 gallons warm/hot water. Use to mop wood, tile, cement or linoleum floors.

For Mildew: Mix together ½ cup white vinegar, ½ cup liquid soap and ¼ cup salt. Apply to mildew on floors, walls, window ledges, etc. and leave in a well-ventilated place for 2 hours. Wash and rinse well.

For ant problem: spread a solution of half vinegar and half water all around the areas where ants are entering. Use a sponge to wipe down doorjambs, windowsills, and foundation cracks. Be careful not to pour this mixture on plants or shrubs.

For outdoor killing of small ants that travel in single file, a spray of white vinegar kills them instantly. Use an empty small plastic bottle with sprayer. Be careful about spraying around animals or birds. Do not spray into eyes.

Fruit and vegetable wash: add vinegar to the water in which you wash fruit, vegetables and greens. It inhibits bacteria, fungi, and other unsavory things.
In Conclusion

Why Vinegar? Because it can be used medicinally, gets rid of poisons in the body, has disinfecting and cleaning properties and is a natural, nontoxic, biodegradable substance. That is, vinegar is an unadulterated food, a powerful cleansing agent and healing elixir---a naturally occurring antibiotic and antiseptic that fights germs and bacteria. We would be smart to make use of vinegar in our own lives and in our avian nurseries and breeding facilities. --- For a healthier, stronger, longer life for our animals and ourselves.

For further reading on vinegars medicinal and antiseptic qualities:

Baker, Cameron. “Garlic, Vinegar, Olive Oil and Nuts”, Published MicroMags, Boca Raton, Florida

Bragg, Paul and Linda, N.D., Ph.D., “Apple Cider Vinegar, Miracle Health System”, Published Health Science, Santa Barbara, California

Doane, Bonnie Monro, “The Parrot In Health and Illness”, Published Howell Book House, New York, New York

Jarvis, D.C, M.D., D.C. “Folk Medicine”, and “Arthritis and Folk Medicine”, Published Fawcett Publications, Inc., Greenwich, Connecticut

Moore, Melodie, “Vim and Vinegar”, Published Harper Perennial,, New York, New York

O’Brien, James Edmond. “The Miracle of Garlic & Vinegar”, Published Globe Communications Corp., New York, New York

Puotinen, C.J., “The Encyclopedia of Natural Pet Care” Published Keats Publishing, Inc., New Canaan, Connecticut

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Contact Information

http://www.aviannetwork.com/articles/acvinthaviary.htm

good read im going to start useing it for both me and Tiny

Wow! Thanks for the information. That was really interesting to read!

I've done a little research, since I posted my question on this thread, and a lot of people think ACV is good stuff!

The only side-affect this stuff seems to have, is that it can indeed do some pretty serious damage to tooth enamal. This is easilly overcome, though, by drinking fresh water after consuming it, or even having a glass of milk. Not too shabby! (It sure beats the vicious side-affects prescription antibiotics inflict!)

Good reading for new Fid owners...

Bumping to the front page for new Fid owners..

What if you put other things in the water already? We're trying Bob on Benedryl for plucking and I'm wondering if the two would counter-act.

Hi there ... I'm just wondering about the Benedryl for plucking ... how are you using it? Did you get any positive results? KARIN

Bumping this once again to the front page for new members to read...

Wow, now I never knew or even HEARD of this!!! Im so going to check it out --- maybe our health store carrys it --- Thanks so much for all the help you all have given to me! I learn something new EVERY day from you ALL!

Hi what great info, that's why I love this place with all the helpful info. Can you mix a 2 litre bottle & how long can you keep it as I only have 1 fid? How much would I add to Chikita's drinking water?

Yep I mix a two litre bottle and keep it in the fridge ( I put 4 cap fulls into the bottle )...takes me about 3 days to use , won`t go of its wonderful stuff...I am not sure about Benedryl , but I add 4 cap fulls of aloe juice and 1/4 spoon of probotics just a maitenance dose and its been o.k`d by our vet to do so , maybe ask your vet ...

did i get the wrong kind? i got apple cider vinegar "ideal for pickling &creating superb salad dressings" please let me know before i use it. i got it at the grocery store its and off brand. thanks i dont want to give it to him if it will hurt him.

I picked up a bottle of the apple cider vinegar today! Added it to Suki's water, so Ill see what happens!!!!
I also picked up some Aloe Juice for his misting -- heard nothing bad about it! So I thought what the heck -- that is a little on the expencive side! I hope it works well with him!

Yep wrong one you need the one from the Health food store ..with "The Mother in it" organic , you can use the other for cleaning the cages etc and I am sure it wouldn`t hurt your fid but doesn`t have the goodness in it that he needs...

oh thank you very much i plan on cleaning his cage thanks again

Is it good for cats also?

Braggs here too..health food store. I use 3 tablespoons to 1 gal of water. Diff people use diff amounts i think.

Good for everyone cats dogs fids people critters of all shapes and sizes...

I started giving ACV to Niki after reading this thread. He's been drinking it for over a week and I have to say he is doing better. His feathers look healthier and he's more active. I'm really impressed by it and am going to keep giving it to him.

Hi Majj I bought Cornwell's premium 100% natural ACV or should I get the Mother

Bumping for new members...
Its advisable to get the organic with the Mother (bits floating in it)..
Normal supermarket vinager is good for cleaning but for adding to the drinking water the Health food store bought organic is the one ...

While I'm not saying anything is necessarily wrong with ACV, let's separate fact from the placebo effect. There is nothing you can give your bird orally that will make its feathers appear healthier in one week. Also, I think we need to be careful about anything we give our birds on a consistent basis. What's wrong with fresh water changed out at least twice a day? Unless there is a specific reason for adding ACV daily, I would question why we do it. I have no problem with using it for a period of time every so often, but let's not get caught up in a bunch of hype.

You're quoting my post from August. I took Niki off the ACV around the middle of September. I started giving it to him again a few weeks ago and again I see an improvement in his energy levels and appearance.

I always have changed his water at least twice a day whether there is acv in it or not.

I asked my vet and he recommended I use it daily in the fids water its also good for humansd and other pets ...
Here is his reply...
IMO its great and I change the boys water daily also ...I make up 2 liters at a time and keep it in the fridge..ACV is also good to spray on the fids chopped up veggies it helps reduce the food going off....

Hey Marion

Sorry for so long before a reply - I have been a little run down myself this last fortnight

Apple cider vinegar does NOT kill any pathogens in the GIT. Its action is to alter the pH of the gut somewhat to make it less favourable for the bad bacteria and yeasts to flourish. Just about all birds will have a low number of dangerous bugs and yeasts in their gut, which by a variety of mechanisms are prevented from growing to huge numbers. Competition from "good" bacteria, particular combinations or types of foods (especially lowering the proportion of simple carbohydrates), and gastrointestinal pH all play part of a protective role.

I know of very little research to guide me in answering whether you should use it continuously or episodically. I think theoretical arguments could be mounted for either position. I see no problems arise when we use it continuously, and so I see no reason to suggest you use episodically if it is currently no problem to you! Always remember to use it at no more than 1:20, and I use it at 1:40. If I ever learn anything different then you will be the first to know!

I think the use of St Mary's thistle and probiotics are entirely justifiable as well. Cinnamon is a v special spice with an increasing number of useful health-promoting properties, and I think it is a useful dietary additive. Dr Harrison's information is extremely useful, but always should be viewed in the context of his business trying to sell some stuff. While the information is always interesting and has some basis in science, I think the benefits that flow can sometimes be overstated. He is a v good veterinarian however!
Mark

This is kind of my point. There aren't any studies. Consequently, lets err on the side of simpler is better. I'm trying to understand exactly how much ACV they must get in the wild. Not much I imagine. If there is a medical problem with the birds digestive tract and it helps, that's great. If there isn't a problem, why use it? Apparently no one can even agree upon what the proper dosage is, 1:20, 1:40???

I have used it continuosly for 6 years the boys are always healthy on their well vist so will continue to use with the vets blessing..everyone must do what they feel is best for their fids..


quote
"I see no problems arise when we use it continuously, and so I see no reason to suggest you use episodically if it is currently no problem to you!"

I don't use it, and I have a 9 yr old quaker and a 28 yr old BF, and they are very healthy and so I will continue to NOT use it--lol. I just think we need to be realistic about what a little vinegar in the water can and can't do for our birds. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Al

Thats fine by me everyone here ha a right to have their opinions and I respect yours...